Zitat:
Original erstellt von C.Hen:
Hallo,
Wir arbeiten in unserer Konstruktion mit Pro-E Wildfire 3 Foundation Advantage(M50). Es wurde jetzt die Überlegung angestellt auf Solid Works umzustellen, da SW in der Grunversion FEM Analysen an Bauteilen erstellen kann. Mit Pro-E ist das nur mit Mechanica möglich. Dann aber auch an Baugruppen. Eine erweiterung unserer Pro E Arbeitsplätze kostet vermutlich mehr als 3 neue SW-Lizenzen.
Hat jemand schon mit Pro-E und Solid Works gearbeitet? Ist eine Umstellung sinnvoll?
Jetzt kommen gesammelte Werke auf Englisch, ich hoffe, das hilft bei der Entscheidung. Quelle: prouser.org Forum: model
MfG
Nachfolgend die Zusammenfassung:
It's a lot of work to do a feature-by-feature comparison, but I would leave that to the SW sales team if they want to your business.
It's been a while (~3 years) since I compared them, but there were three big issues with SW that made it not possible for many companies:
1. No data management tool - they rely on 3rd party PDM tools.
2. No routed systems package.
3. Large assembly performance is way below the Pro/E level, to the point it's not even possible beyond a certain point.
The last and maybe most significant aspect would be the same for any CAD software switch. If you have been using Pro/E for any length of time, then you have a large model database that you have invested a lot of money in. Also, you probably have internal procedures that are built around Pro/E to a cetain extent, along with a user base that has been trained and seasoned on Pro/E. There is a very significant cost involved in switching your CAD tool, including reviewing and changing processes, training users, remodeling or converting your database (not really even an option, IMO, anyone who says they can do it with feature-based results is lying), deploying the software. SW needs to come up with a complete implementation strategty with a detailed ROI for your company to make it even worth considering.
Best Regards,
I'm in the same condition: a new director want to switch at SolidWorks and I tried to use it.
Absolutely not comparable with Pro/E Wildfire e Wildfire 2 (I think Wildfire 3 enormously superior to SolidWorks) not for the usual definition "my CAD is better than your CAD".
SolidWork is hard limited also in the basic features: the datum feature (points, axes are
paralytics) the patterns are awful (pattern along curves are no permitted, pattern permitted have variability ONLY for position of feature, not for its dimensions....)
SolidWork is the best solution for waste money.
In Italy say: the person who economize ( without mind !!! ) .... waste
Good luck
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Here is one guy's opinion:
I have found that a homogeneous CAD system is cheaper to maintain than a heterogeneous system. We use ProE for modeling, manufacturing and drawings. We use ProductView to distribute drawings and web-link to communicate to our PDM system (we are going to windchill but as of today we use eMatrix). Because of this we have one vendor (bigger orders mean bigger discounts) one support center, one system manager and one training center.
Now I am not going to say that one CAD system is better for your business than another -- although I have been using ProE for almost 19 years now -- but I will strongly suggest your manager go with one or the other but not multiple CAD systems. As he considers which one, remind him of the additional cost of converting data to a new CAD system and re-training the users.
I have attached a document that I found in the mid 90's and I have used it often as I have advanced into management. It is as applicable today as it was then. Perhaps you can start using some of these ideas on your manager.
So, I don't have any reasons not to use Solidworks but I do feel strongly about picking one CAD system and sticking with it until it no longer suits the company's needs.
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It's not really a question of which is better in absolute terms...since that's pretty much impossible to quantify anyway, nor even which one is cheaper, since the differences are pretty marginal now. With well trained users, you are unlikely to be limited by either package.
The real question is the cost of switching (or not switching, since they go hand in hand).
Costs to switch:
1. training all users. Training for either is required unless you're willing to take a really massive productivity hit. Remember, you've probably got a lot of very experienced Pro/E users, people with skills built up over a good amount of time and likely at a significant training investment. A good chunk of this internal experience has to be completely re-built if you change packages. That's going to cost money and productivity.
2. All that legacy data. Products with 9000 components...all of which are in Pro/E now. Sure, SW will open Pro/E, but it's not likely to be as seamless as you'd like (or as SW claim). There will be problems and that'll be another productivity hit.
3. All those templates, modeling standards, mapkeys etc. that you've built up over the years will be instantly useless. They all have to be re-built, which takes time etc. Also, mapkeys in particular can be a huge productivity hit.
Costs not to switch:
1. Hmmm...well, SW may be a little cheaper.
2. If you're being forced to it by some outside customer, you may have no choice.
3. New manager has to go out on training instead of everyone else.
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Last time I use feature recognition was worthless. It found every feature alright but no design intent. By that I mean all 280 holes, all
165 rounds, all chamfers each had a dimension! To change a hole diameter took a long time! Maybe it has gotten better but was worthless on complicated parts. You loose allot of advanced features, it just does not have the power. You get what you pay for. Some things it does slick but you will be left hanging if you draw complicated parts. Try create round thru curve, or torroidal bend, or skeleton files in top down design. Creat cam profile to follow graph... Create a flat panel with 300 pockets then roll it into a cylinder! Try fill pattern... Piece of cake in Proe.
If all your parts are simple brackets and cylinders any cad will work.
The stuff we do I cannot go an hour or two before I run out of features and start with work-arounds. Then look at your customers, if you are in Aerospace and defense you need Catia, UG, Proe, Or SDRC. None of the major companies use SW or Solid Edge other than a few scattered seats here and there. Bottom line is there is no real comparison, its like a Bobcat and a D6 Caterpillar, they do both move dirt. When the boss wants that mountanin moved which one are you going to jump on?
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Solid work is the king on solid modeling I'm been using solid work pro/e wf3 /autocad-inventor For me solid work is very easy.
Proe have a lot of trouble( pain on the neck).
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Technical reasons are fine and are not to be ignored.
However, to switch software products to save a few hundred dollars would be penny wise and pound foolish.
The cost of recreating your existing database alone will cost your company $300,000-$500,000 at a minimum, not to mention other real costs for user training, system management, legacy transfer, etc.
Unless a proper requirements analysis is performed, the benefits of the prospective CAD solutions effectively evaluated, and a corporate CAD/PDM/ERP strategy formulated, a company cannot truly know what the best "overall" solution is.
I hope that this input is of some benefit to you.
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I am a current ProEngineer user, but I have used Solidworks in the past.
Solidworks is a good package with superior integration with Microsoft Office programs. SW will accomplish 80% of all the design tasks that most engineering or manufacturing companies require, but it is that last 20% where ProEngineer dominates.
ProE is a superior modeling package with regards to capability. SW is definitely easier to use, but ProE will be able to create complex geometry from easy to complex castings to full blown styled cosmetic plastic parts that don't have a straight edge anywhere.
My understanding is as well that ProE has a far superior large assembly capability. I have worked on assemblies with several hundred parts ( complex parts like castings) with no problems. Sure I bump into the operating system memory limit, but there are methods in proE to make the assembly model light weight without affecting the underlying parts.
ProE is modeling package. It has other tools like behavioral modler that solidworks does not have. ProE is a superior engineering tool. This belief that it was hard to work with was true in previous versions, but with the newer releases of ProE (i.e. WF2 and WF3) they are much improved user interfaces.
hope this helps,
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We use both SolidWorks and Pro/E (and some AutoCAD) with SolidWorks being the former application that was replaced by Pro/E. We have yet to upgrade to SW2007 and still on WF2, but I have been keeping up with both SW 2007 (monthly users meetings) and WF3 (six month users meetings and this forum).
What has impressed me the most about SW is the surfacing capabilities ("extremely impressed with fill surface and free form features") and their belt/chain, traction relations and make path tool as well. Their sheetmetal package was also just enhance and is now comparable to Pro/E's and better in some areas like sketch flattening (not just part flattening but actual sketch flattening).
Not sure what side of the fence you are on "less filling" (shown
dimensions) or "taste grate" (created dimensions). If you are on the taste grate side you will really like how dimensions are created in drawing mode. I still not like how the application does not strictly adhere to ASME Y14.5 requirements. I think that is one of the reasons why people like it so much, they claim it was easier to learn when they really were allow to break the rules. AutoCAD people love it because it uses blocks just like AutoCAD did.
They are working on taking out the process of "how do I do this" and let the software automatically do it for you. In 2007 it is done with FeatureXpert, DimXpert, MateXpert and SketchXpert. DimXpert did not make the cut and was remove before production release, but the other three are very nice to have enhancements that Pro/E should think about having.
At the users meeting we were told that the thin wall technology in Cosmos FlowWorks is moving in on big name competitors market place. We have both Pro/Mechanica and CosmosWorks Professional users here. They really like the click, click, click you're done with CosmosWorks. They also like the drop test tool.
In addition to enhancement beyond Pro/E capabilities, SW2007 has also added some stuff to be just like pro/E, features similar to simplified reps, model check, adaptive analysis and a few others.
If I had to select one thing that stands out between the two applications; it would be that SolidWorks appears to be written to meet the needs of mechanical engineers and Pro/E is just written to meet the needs of the software writers and their "intended functionality". The separation between the two is rapidly closing and I expect SolidWorks to one day excel beyond Pro/E. Anyway that's my 2cents. If you have not seen a demo since 2005, you need to do so, I believe you will also be impressed as I am with how much SolidWorks has advanced.
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ProE still handles large assemblies much better.
If your products make use of organic forms/compound surfacing, ProE's surfacing capabilities are also far superior (such as they are).
Having said that, the learning curve for SW is much shorter, and I recommend it to many clients who simply do not need the extra capability and capacity of ProE. Also, SW is narrowing the capability gap with each new release.
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My Gut reaction:
Determine the cost of changing (find someone who has survived the migration).
How did they handle: File
Migration...Training...Suppliers...Customers...Routed Systems...Family Tables..File Management(Intralink)...
I'd say if SolidWorks will migrate all your files and get your assemblies and drawings so that the change is SEAMLESS...OK, but unless Pro/E is totally broken and your loosing thousands of dollars on it.
Why change? Now, realistically speaking, If your director is dead set on Solidworks....you better find a class and learn it my friend (read "Who Moved My Cheese?" by Spencer Johnson). Good Luck.
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I am not a basher of other products. I will try and keep this as straight line as possible. it really depends on what you are going to use the software for. surface modeling in pro is sweet. I am not sure that you can do the same in solid works. I am also under the impression that every option in SW is at additional cost. also there is a cost in converting all of that 9000 parts if you are planning on using them again? I think SW is a OK product for simple stuff, pro-e is a much stronger robust software. the help desk sucks, and maintenance pricing is a little out there. I have been using pro-e since rev 13 It has come a long ways. best of luck ============ The real downside I bet is the cost of converting.
- Time spent planning the transition
- Retraining cost
- Work slow down during the transition
- You'll still need Pro|E to maintain the legacy data
- Redo company start parts and drawing formats
- Redo and revise company standards to match how SW works
Depending on deep you use Pro|E functionality, SW will probably work fine for you. If you're using advanced assy techniques or advanced surfacing, my impression is that SW will frustrate you. Then again, if get too deep into Pro|E it'll frustrate you too.
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1) are your components mostly prismatic, or free form?
2) how inter-related are the components?
Do your company practices use layouts and/or skeleton parts.
Do you do much with external refs.
3) Do you use PDM now? Whose system?
I am much happier using external refs in SW than WF, using external copy geom in WF is not easily re-definable.
The problems / issues of parts being 'in session' in WF has also caused problems when saving.
Having SW use the Windows file locking attribute has helped when sharing files without a PDM system.
BTW, my assy's do not have anywhere near 9000 components, but relating to assembly related issues, these are my impressions. Supposedly, SW has done much work lately to help with large assemblies.
So my opinion would be the following:
1) free-form = WF. Prismatic = either system
2) yes, Solidworks. Layouts, vs. skeletons, vs. inheritance is confusing in WF and sometimes not re-definable.
3) No PDM, SW. Yes PDM, either system.
Just my $0.02
(I apologize for the direct response, but for some reason I can't respond via the listsite) (Blocked ports) ============ I think you are looking for more technical details than what I have to offer, but I wanted to at least offer my opinion.
I've used SW and have to say its not a bad thing.
It works very similarly to Pro/E so the learning curve would be fairly short.
In detail mode it has some nice features and in model mode it works more intuitively, variable section sweeps and the like are more accessible without having to refer to notes or help.
But it still has its quirks and those take time to master.
The file sizes are a little larger, access times are a little longer but there are tools similar to Pro/E that allow you to turn stuff off that you don't need.
All told, every release of SW adds things the users want, with a UI that makes them accessible, I can't say the same for Pro/E.
It depends which Pro/E package you have too.
SW is pretty close to Foundation Advantage.
If you have extra modules or Flex 3C, then SW will not have that level of capability.
Add-on packages aren't cheap and you have to look at the whole picture apples to apples to really make a fair comparison.
As for the price, it's partly a myth that Pro/E is more expensive than SW.
A PTC rep will be able to negotiate a purchase price significantly better than SW.
But, PTC maintenance can be slightly more expensive.
But changing CAD systems is a bigger consideration.
Is your department prepared to take the hit?
It would take a long time to master, convert over and re-establish momentum on a new system.
All those designs you worked so hard to tweak would be subject to a redo.
Any coherent cost justification has to take that into account.
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SW does not handle assemblies (let alone large ones) very well. Gets extremely slow even with a decent system. Also there is the issue of what to do with all of our legacy data from Pro if you did switch over. This can cost millions to convert if you have a large amount of data. There are also issues of feature creation and what SW cannot do depending upon the complexity of your products as Pro still has better tools for complex surfacing, etc.... I have seen clients of mine who have tried to switch because they think that it will be cheaper but in the long run many have given up or now run both systems in house. It all depends upon what type of products you design and manufacture.
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Hi
Take a look at: http://www.mcadcentral.com/proe/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=32884&PN=1
http://www.mcadcentral.com/proe/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27621&PN=5
And her you have soldworks users who says that ProE is better: http://www.mcadcentral.com/solidworks/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=149&PN=1
Best regards
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OK, this isn't going to sound like help, at first. But bear with me.
Solidworks is more intuitive and easier to learn and use. Until you get into the hard stuff.
Some things I haven't figured out how to do yet on Solidworks: Reroute a feature. Copy a feature where you select all the new references.
When things don't quite work and you need to really have a lot of options to MAKE it work, Pro/E comes out on top. It gives you many more options to do everything. And Wildfire 3.0 makes up a little bit in the easy-to-use category.
I can't really compare them directly. I use Pro/E to design mostly molded plastic parts and appliance assemblies. I use Solidworks to design mechanical assemblies made up of extrusions and sheetmetal parts.
But some of the larger assemblies with SW seem to take forever to save.
File management with SW seems more difficult, too. You can't tell where your files are coming from or getting saved to. And try to make a backup copy of what you're working on into a new directory. It gives you so many warning messages you'd think you were about to reformat your hard drive. I prefer Pro/E with the path shown in the window header and the file backup command that puts all my files into a directory, no questions asked.
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Why switch? There should be a cost justification that supports what value you receive.
Value = Quality / (Cost * Time)
Quality is partly subjective and partly objective.
Time can be modeling speed, time to make revisions, time to create new models and drawings, time to make prototypes, installation time, IT support time, time to switch to a new cad system and convert needed drawings, etc.
Cost is original purchase price, ongoing maintenance, hard disk space for files, computers needed to run software effectively, network needed for file transfer, data management needs, direct cost to switch to a new cad system, etc.
Just because someone is a big fan is almost irrelevant (in a rational world). What matters is the value you receive. Does the value of using SolidWorks out weight the value of ProE. If you already have ProE the answer is probably keep Pro. If it's a new business and your trying to decide on a CAD system then for most people (95%) either tool will work but for the remaining 5% ProE provides higher value due to ability to do more
complex surfacing and design intent tools. If you don't have a 3D cad
system and you've been in business for a while then you have more serious management strategy issues to worry about.
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Ian,
see
http://www.caddigest.com/subjects/solidworks/select/cadcamnet_proe_vs_solidworks.htm
you can buy more of the article for a fee....
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BTW: your computer has no brain, use your own 
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den umgekehrten Weg beschreiben und arbeite seit ca. 2 Monaten mit Wildfire2.
Haben die jedenfalls mal in der Werbung versprochen. Und alle Nas lang das CAD wechseln tun die auch. Man schaue auf deren Bilanzen...
Man darf da durchaus skeptisch sein. 
Das zur Ermittlung der Anzahl der notwendigen Lizenzen. 
niemals wieder Handarbeit
Keine Panik, Du arbeitest mit Pro/E! Und Du hast cad.de gefunden! 
